jeremy the other one
GM Class
Jeremy
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Posts: 44
Leagues Played: Battle League, Character League, Club League, Adult League
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Post by jeremy the other one on Sept 3, 2013 16:50:58 GMT -8
I agree I'm not sure if it is allowed now but an item of death ray strike or death ray would kill a veteran in one hit if It had been warded and also barbarians loose their power against mages they are designed to fight mages and now mages have something that cuts strait thru that not to mention warded ub with charge or boulders. I also agree with nick pacifism should be one mana per day or 2 per day but now with the whole per encounter now martil masters are always in danger of dying exept for 2 fights
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ZackAttack
GM Class
Zack
Do you like my hat?
Posts: 72
Leagues Played: Battle League, Character League, Club League, Adult League, Crestfall, Falnorian, Life, Teriock
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Post by ZackAttack on Sept 3, 2013 16:52:45 GMT -8
Personally if I did anything, I would keep the addition of Ward as a rotator (as it is an important spell which is often the only counter to a lot of things and keeps the game balanced) and implement Pacifism as a 1 mana ritual per set you play which must be recast if you die. A bit more involved, but it would spare those characters who are rendered much less effective by this change while still giving a counter to pacifism (as well as other resistances).
An additional note which is unrelated to pacifism: In Jr. League, class-based healing is considered warded for purposes of damaging undead and healing terror balls. Why, then, should it not affect barbarians with magic resistance if it is warded for those other things? In adult league gameplay, magic resistance is barely an inconvenience at all for barbarians who want to get medicine balled. I would suggest allowing barbarians to be medicine balled in Jr. League, as there is already precedent for assuming healing to be warded. Also, barbarians lack healing factor in Jr. League, which acts as a substitute of sorts for healing at higher levels in adult league. So adding healing factor as a skill is another option, though not one I'm entirely keen on. Just some thoughts.
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Scott
Man at Arms
Sir Scott of the Rainbow Light
Yeeeesssss?
Posts: 116
Leagues Played: Character League, Club League, Adult League, Falnorian
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Post by Scott on Sept 3, 2013 17:17:06 GMT -8
Personally I would not add healing factor to junior league for two reasons. The first is that as a stand alone ability healing factor is useless in junior league since barbarians do not have more than 1 hit point. In addition if you were to make it healing factor elite you would end up with a whole bunch of dead barbarians, and personally it's not much fun when you die every encounter just so you stay down. As far as warded healing is concerned I would agree with something like medicine ball being considered 'warded' for the purpose of healing simply because regardless of whether it should be done or not many players forget about it anyways.
Pacifism and Ward: I must say I agree with Nick and Jeremy on this one, although what might be a solution is if pacifism costs 1 mana per encounter (per day if you have a vow of pacifism) and ward is removed completely. As far as I can see ward was added as a counter to certain characters like Zane and Clara who have found ways around knockout, but you have to remember that pacifism is not the only type of resistance. Unreachability, magic resistance, and spell turning are all perfectly balanced skills and introducing the ward skill destroys that balance. Also just as another suggestion for Pacifism (thank you nick for the idea) what if it only worked agains physical damage? Thus the act of wielding a weapon against a pacifist would be what triggers it, but magic still works fine. That way pacifism can still cost no mana and pacifists can be knocked out, drowned, or damaged with spells.
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Nick
Man at Arms
Nick
You know you?re in love when you can?t fall asleep because reality is finally better than dreams.%\0
Posts: 126
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Post by Nick on Sept 3, 2013 17:25:42 GMT -8
But see Zack, Ward does not keep the game balanced. It is an important skill in Adult League, this is true, but we also need to consider that it has never existed as a transferable spell before. There have been items that have been passively warded, but their scope is much more limited than this version. Even with the impediments to the skill (like the convoke and mana cost), the ability to apply a ward to anything (or even just to items) will have a *huge* impact on the system. Warded UB wounding Boulders, warded elder sorceries (without it directly built in), issues with wards being called across the fields, barbarians becoming not as effective, veterans being able to be cut down much easier (since ward will go through Unbreacheable and brace and vitals protection leaving them practically defenseless)
While it is true that the fact that Ward is high level and therefore not as common a spell, it will still have huge effects and contribute to the problem of "fun" of the game.
And a note on Barbarians- since Junior League is a system that is intended for incoming players, I don't think it's a good idea to get into terms like "warded healing". It is much easier to explain that "spells don't work on you" than "spells don't work on you unless they're trying to heal you". I can just see the confused players now. Club league might be ready for the distinctions to be more common place, but I don't feel like it's right to change the *entire* junior league system to be more complicated to satisfy the higher skill level of a select group.
Though that is a valid point about continuity of terms. In regards to the Barbarian's healing specifically, I think the fact that all RoR's are 20, that healing works differently in JL (restores hits not just waking up), and Jumpstart Heal kind of makes up for it a little. Though that is a good point about the Healing Factor replacement, though I think by adding that skill in you'd open up a whole other can of worms...
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Scott
Man at Arms
Sir Scott of the Rainbow Light
Yeeeesssss?
Posts: 116
Leagues Played: Character League, Club League, Adult League, Falnorian
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Post by Scott on Sept 3, 2013 17:28:59 GMT -8
What about consciousness instead? You would wake up from knockout but not from wounds.
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jeremy the other one
GM Class
Jeremy
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Posts: 44
Leagues Played: Battle League, Character League, Club League, Adult League
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Post by jeremy the other one on Sept 3, 2013 17:57:35 GMT -8
For needing warded healing against undead just change that if healing damages them normally then no need to make medicine ball warded
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Mirandy
Commoner
Miranda
Posts: 30
Leagues Played: Club League, Adult League, Falnorian
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Post by Mirandy on Sept 3, 2013 18:02:00 GMT -8
I like the idea of Pacifism being a one-mana ritual that lasts a day, but I think that adding Ward and nerfing Pacifism at the same time isn't that great of a combination. In my opinion, ward is a little OP. You spend one mana, and a weapon can cut through all resistances for an encounter? Maybe increase the cost to two mana, or something. If we want pacifism to be even weaker (which I don't see the point of with the introduction of ward), then maybe we could make it to one mana per half day? I just think that one mana per encounter is a little drastic.
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SwordSoup
GM Class
Gabriel
Posts: 134
Leagues Played: Battle League, Character League, Club League, Adult League, Crestfall, Falnorian, Life, Teriock
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Post by SwordSoup on Sept 3, 2013 18:58:30 GMT -8
The thing with pacifism being active for long periods of time, even if it costs a mana is that it is to powerful for things like on the way encounters or less dangerous missions. This isn't an issue as much in club league, but most of junior league has to deal with that one party member that draws the battle out, never has to take part in combat or always escapes when the rest of the party dies or gets captured. The issue is that it is to challenging for most monsters to counter pacifism and it frustrates the baddies as well as lessening action and combat, which for many people is the point of the game. Overall, it makes most of junior league less fun, which is the overall point of the game. That being said, the nerf on pacifism is a little extreme, especially with ward. The purpose of nerfing pacifism is that pacifism isn't always necessary and people should try to survive using skill, not by sitting around with an invincibility spell. However, the current mana cost doesn't do this appropriately, at least in club league. There are just to many encounters where pacifism is "necessary." It also serves as a mana suck for life mages, who's only currently free rotator is circle of protection, which can't and shouldn't be used constantly. Life mages need something to use while still saving mana for Elder Sorceries, items, blessings, etc.
I think a nice balance could be achieved by making normal pacifism have the same mana cost system as oracles, but per set instead of day. This way people would both have more uses of pacifism when it's necessary and have mana to spare if they use it wisely, though still keeping the mechanic of pacifism being used selectively.
Now onto ward. I don't feel ward is necessary in junior league, it just cancels to many skills and weakening too many classes when used properly and sometimes outright ruining their most powerful skills, something which I don't feel should be standard, especially with the recent changes to giant strength. At the moment, a warded fireball could take out almost any player, cutting through missile resistance, unbreachability, spellturning and the works. Once the new boulder mechanics are factored in, a thought out group of monsters with a warded full wound boulder could take out anyone but a ranger, especially since baddies don't have to worry about preserving mana. And when Elder Sorcery, stafftouched mana drain, magic items and whatnot are factored in... A warded weapon should not be something a party has to constantly worry about, but instead, a nasty surprise that some lucky baddy can have wound up. If ward has to stay, I think it would be better balanced by either limiting what it can be used on or how it can be used (only the person with ward using the weapon, warding weapons but not spells, choosing a class of weapons that can be warded etc.)
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Post by gamemasterchris on Sept 3, 2013 22:54:18 GMT -8
Great discussion on this topic. I wish I had time to discuss it more but work is heavy right now. I agree with you about the heavy cost of pacifism but Gabriel is right on the money about the fact that most monsters can't handle pacifism, so ward doesn't really counter it, it just enables players to deal with it. I agree that ward cuts through a lot of things, but then again, there are a lot of things that. Drag on in junior league because no one has ward. In adult league ward is very common, and a low level life spell. Monsters still can't deal with pacifism well but it's harder to get pacifism. I'm game for a longer pacifism time etc but I think that ultimately if you compare a veteran and a pacifist, even a veteran is more fun to fight and better balanced. I don't like the spells hurting pacifist, though natural damage always does. nick I know it's not hard to deal with a pacifist if your good at the game, but the people who are hurting the most are the pbaddies that basically are dealing with ritual suicide becaus study can beat the party. If pacifist could always be knocked out, I'd be cool with it as a constant skill, but there are way too many combos and simple tricks around it (magic item, adrenaline, backstory, etc) I agree that pacifism is key to game play, but what we are talking about is the standard spell. I will be sure the martial masters are still as they should be even if that means adjust the rules to fit their case ( perhaps for then it's constant). But what do we want our game play to look like setting aside what it is now.
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Post by Celebfealor on Sept 4, 2013 11:55:27 GMT -8
The Martial Masters are supposed to be awesome. If their whole way of life and their abilities are so bound up in Sorikonian spirituality and culture that they have an entire class/prestige class which breaks the standard rules of the universe (warrior/mage), why not just say that perma-pacifism is part of that whole package? If they're supposed to be awesome, just make them awesome. ^_^
Also I'm thinking about the issue with monsters and pacifism, and hitting a snag: of all the kinds of things that we usually fight, not many of them will even be able to have access to ward. It's much more likely that they're going to have a passively warded item than it is that they're going to have a 2nd-tier life mage. The exception to this is tier two humans, which already wreck face for some reason and don't need extra help in order to hurt the goodies. Definitely a good point that pacifists are frustrating for the baddies, but ward doesn't really seem like it's going to fix that, just from an accessibility standpoint.
I'm also reminded of the issue that people are having with AL knights. Namely that nobody plays knights because they've been nerfed. Why were they nerfed? A couple of people found a combo that works really, really well (having four arms, for example), the knights totally decimated, and then in order to "balance" it and keep them from getting out of hand knights got nerfed. But that ended up making it so that nobody wants to play knights anymore, because they're only effective if they're *really really* effective. It seems like the same issue - a couple of people have found really great combos with pacifism, and they use it to completely decimate. So automatically one wants to mess with pacifism in order to make it more balanced, but it ends up making pacifism not worth getting if you don't have a way to do it that's special.
I think my preference would be something like pacifism is one mana per mission if you're a normal person, and one mana per set if you've taken a vow of pacifism. A mana is a *lot* in junior league, and if it's just one mana per encounter, you're going to end up saving it for when you really need it. The issue with that being that the times when you need it most are the times when something really nasty has been sprung on you that nobody was expecting, and you would activate pacifism so that you can get the heck out of there, except whoops, you're in combat now and can't. If you can do it at the beginning of a mission, then at least you can have the sense that this mission might go badly at some point (even if you're not sure how badly, or how far along) and then have it prepared for when it does.
(And on vows of pacifism and potentially extending pacifism length, from a GM perspective: how is it sane to keep track of who has taken a vow of pacifism and who hasn't? Is there some kind of in-game ritual that has to be done so that there's a concrete reminder for the GM, or is it the GM just taking people's words for it? And what constitutes a vow of pacifism? Because you could have people who have "taken a vow" except then go around and wreck the field chi dueling everybody, which is pacifist in technicality but certainly not in spirit. Does that even count? At what point do you draw the line, and how do you enforce it and keep track of it?)
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Post by gamemasterchris on Sept 4, 2013 22:35:22 GMT -8
We tried to fix pacifism with knockout being not a skill, and that helped, but there are still too many ways around it. I agree that we are nerfing it because of a few people who broke it with combos like knight but if one ability breaks so much, there is a problem. A helm of pacifism is a simple example and there is no reason that should be hard to make other than that the Gm says so. I don't like those kinds of rules ("you can't do that because its too cool" is not a good reason for something not to work). I want a clean solution. I'm open to tweaking pacifism if there is a nice way to do it that makes sense and is easy to use, but we do need to focus on the fun of the game. I think a very interesting mod would be that if you are protected from something you can not inflict that effect on others. So if a Pacifist cannot be knocked out (due to helm, adrenaline etc) they actually loose the ability to chase someone to go unconscious (can't swift sleep, knockout, etc). If they are resistant to mana drains for some reason, they cannot chi strike or cuss others to loose mana. This is in keeping with the theme of pacifism which is giving up the ability to do something in exchange for protection from it. Another nice mod could be that vows and extensions to the time are party based. If the party kills something, this breaks your vow. If the party wounds something, this breaks your vow. If that's the case, pacifism could be free for sure. What do people think about those versions? Regarding knight - I don't know when knight was too cool except in adult league. If that's what you mean then I get it, otherwise, Knight has never seemed too powerful in junior. Regarding ward, I think its a utility ability that everyone knows and has to know already, so why doesn't it exist somewhere in the game. If we have to explain it every time but no where is it actually an ability, we have a problem. We call warded all the time, with weapons and spells. Adding the actual ability just seems to make learning what ward cuts through simpler. But ultimately if its too tough to make it work, I'm not attached. I think we should play with the mechanics of how it works in combat though. So far marking the warded items and needing to convoke just makes it possible to deal with a threat, not easy. Having a warded weapon means its possible to take down the veteran. It still isn't easy. But if people don't like dealing with it ultimately its all of you who will be dealing with it at every event. I brought in ward not just to deal with pacifism but for lots of things like souring barbarians, powerful veterans, and people with effects Resistence. It's the counter to those abilities like dispel magic is the counter to all spells. It just keeps those classes from becoming complacent- knowing there could be a warded item on the field and they need to be a bit more catious. Lastly- yes, don't worry about nerfing the Sorikonian masters. They will have whatever version of pacifism I need them to have to make them still work in my game world. This is about what players should have.
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Post by Celebfealor on Sept 4, 2013 23:07:38 GMT -8
I really like the mod where anything that you are protected from, you can't do. It fits thematically/in the spirit of the spell and it seems like it would discourage trying to go for those combos at least somewhat (though of course, never completely). It's also something that the player has to manage themselves, rather than making it something that everybody around them has to worry about. Definitely not in agreement with the whole party one though. It means that you're depending on everybody else behaving well in order to be effective yourself - and sure, you can try to get people to cooperate, but ultimately, even if you try your hardest it's not something you have control over. Having your ability to function at the mercy of how nice everybody is feeling today is not the most fun thing ever. Actually it really kind of sucks. Knight was specific to Adult League's issues with it - hence the AL modifier. The two just reminded me of each other a little in terms of the OP combos people find. It is true that ward has just become one of those things and been in JL. I just meant that if it was meant specifically as a counter to pacifism only and the ability of monsters to deal with them, then it might encounter issues with accessibility, which wouldn't help much with the pacifism problem. But if it was intended to be introduced as a solution for other things too, then never mind. I guess there's still accessibility issues, although I guess on the other hand it can be put into items now, and.. I'm not sure where that was going. Leaving off on that thought train for now. Thoughts about the idea of getting around pacifism with things like helms of pacifism - it wouldn't fix it completely, but you could make it so that it is impossible to extend the spell's duration with a vow of pacifism if your source is anything other than being a 2nd tier life mage. I guess it could also make sense as extendable if it's a blessing from certain deities, too. But certainly not items. That way, even though people can still mess with it to some extent, it won't be an issue nearly as long. It could also be a cultural thing - extending pacifism with a vow of pacifism - that only works in Sorikonia because of the specialness of everything there. And that it can't be done in other places. I'm not sure if that would actually solve anything, but have possibilities to consider in case somebody gets something out of them.
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Lynx
Commoner
Rowan
If you dont worry about it, it wont kill you%\0\%
Posts: 33
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Post by Lynx on Sept 6, 2013 17:03:34 GMT -8
Question. At what point during the season do lycanthrope characters gain regenerating, and when do they become a full were creature?
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SwordSoup
GM Class
Gabriel
Posts: 134
Leagues Played: Battle League, Character League, Club League, Adult League, Crestfall, Falnorian, Life, Teriock
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Post by SwordSoup on Sept 9, 2013 0:51:09 GMT -8
Do treeform and polymorph work on creatures or people that have already left their body?
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ZackAttack
GM Class
Zack
Do you like my hat?
Posts: 72
Leagues Played: Battle League, Character League, Club League, Adult League, Crestfall, Falnorian, Life, Teriock
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Post by ZackAttack on Sept 9, 2013 18:27:48 GMT -8
I'd imagine that they would work on creatures, provided you can target them for long enough. They definitely would not work on a body without a soul; a soul is required for the spell to successfully target an individual.
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