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Post by ElfChild on Jan 8, 2013 23:00:12 GMT -8
1. Yes. I am aware that my first plan was not ethically sound. I am not going to attempt to justify it.
2. Question. What real things do you plan on telling them to defend against? If we aren't strong enough to take out the real threats, how will they be able to? We AREN'T strong enough to deal with the things they should really be scared of yet, and they're trying to kill the people who might be strong enough to defend them. (All those urukai with legit classes sure as hell didn't attack us on sight because they thought we were FRIENDLY, and before the militia interfered they were hunting BANDITS.) So yeah. Maybe it would be nice to be able to do things entirely truthfully. But these people are attacking and killing people who should rightfully be their allies. Telling them that had no effect whatsoever before. Have we suddenly acquired a high level diplomat? Why should they be any more willing to listen to us now?
If the goal is to defend civilians, I'd take the urukai as defenders over the militia any day. So my goal is to get the majority of the militia to go home (or at least get out of combat) and the orcs and urukai to help defend the island. That or by some miracle get them to work together. If we HAVE randomly acquired a diplomat can we have him or her work on that?
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jeremy
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Post by jeremy on Jan 9, 2013 7:26:24 GMT -8
um i just want to interject real quick on that. we can definitely expect them to take on threats that we cannot. they are a far larger force, and at the moment their superior training and cohesion from working together for 13 odd years makes them far more effective then us currently. while them breaking their vows of pacifism is not ideal (as probably stated somewhere up there before) than does not mean that we should treat them like "weapons of the vampires" given a nudge in the right direction they might be very valuable to us, just as the orcs could be also. (again, the orcs are a much more effective fighting force than us right now) while it may seem like it is hard to put that across right now, that does not mean we should resort to the same methods that we might use on an actual enemy.
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Gorlan
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 8:13:04 GMT -8
My plan was simply meant as a delaying tactic so we can reach 1st tier. After that we will be able to better prove to them that we can defend them. The militia is actually very disorganized. Think about what happened on the way up the mountain. They had no clue that another group had agreed to stand down. This will make diplomacy difficult, because all it takes is one group to set the orcs and urukai off. We need to have a clear goal right now. I think that should be to defend sorikonia. We have to remember that it is our job to do so. That is what we have to PROVE to the militia.
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Gorlan
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 8:19:40 GMT -8
On another topic: Is stormwing wanting to kill last seasons characters because she told them some important thing about Tui Ammoni or just because of all the filaments. As I recall we saved Sorikonia 3-4 times from certain destruction.
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Post by Celebfealor on Jan 9, 2013 9:01:51 GMT -8
I'm not talking about trying to verbally convince them of things (because, yes, we have no high-level diplomat, and they haven't responded well to debate thus far), I'm talking about showing them that we can actually follow through with our word. So when they come up to us and say, "We're looking for ogres!", instead of saying "Uh, we haven't seen any - you wanna go fight vampires though?,", we can instead just calmly say, "It's okay, we already dealt with them. No problem, guys." No, we aren't going to be able to deal with *everything* right away, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing we can deal with. We just start putting our money where our mouths are right now, and start keeping our word right now, and as we level up it'll get easier and easier to keep doing that. But we have to start now, while we have no skills, otherwise I can see them complaining about "well we're just normal people, you guys get all kinds of special training, you don't have to worry about this kind of stuff/pacifism/etc". And that's not going to work out so well. If we start now, we can counter by saying, "And those months as journeymen... didn't exist?"
It would be great to get the militia to go home and back to their vows of pacifism, but it seems like it's going to have to be a more long-term goal rather than a short-term one. And it would be great to have the urukai as defenders, but how are we going to do that? We can't get the government involved because if it starts paying off armies, that's militarization and lack of neutrality. We could try and collectively save up and then hire out both the urukai and the militia as a private army and them make them work together or something, but that seems pretty far-fetched/difficult/problem-riddled.
Hm. OR what we could do is choose some kind of threat, and invite both members of the urukai and of the militia to help us with it. Maybe once they work together without going at each other's throats, and see that yes, both sides here are capable of doing good/helpful/blah, it can be easier to get at least those two groups to stop fighting. Like. Eliminate what there is for the militia to fight, and do so legitimately rather than with tricks - by either turning them into allies, or getting to them before the militia does.
Dev - agreed that we should have a goal, and that that goal should be what it already was. As I said before, we just have to show them that we're capable of following through with that goal. A delaying tactic would be nice, and is far preferable to outright trickery and deception, but it seems even better to get working on it immediately.
As for Stormwing - I think the reason she hates the adventurers from last season is just because, at the beginning of last season before the clans were united, Water and Fire (the latter of which we belonged to) were enemies. She just never gave that opinion up.
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Gorlan
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 9:06:06 GMT -8
After rereading what Kim said, I agree with her. We have to get the militia to defend actual rituals that actually help us. For 2 reasons. 1: We'd be stupid not to. We should get as many reinforcements as possible. Therefore actual summoning rituals. 2: When the militia finds out we deceived them they won't like us. So they actually have to protect people. Also I agree with the fact that they think they are acting in self defense. So we really have to prove that we are powerful. Which is why my plan is necessary. EDIT: I was talking about Kim's previous post, not the one right above this.
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 9:11:06 GMT -8
Alternatively, after reaching first tier. Instead of diplomacy, we could challenge them to an honorable duel for the job of protecting sorikonia. Then all we have to do is win. This will probably only work here, but it's worth a shot.
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 9:18:55 GMT -8
and yes it was my fault. No more mentioning vampires to the militia. Maybe we should have them save people damaged by the storms. That could be fairly distracting ("Are you sure you got everyone out, better go check again")
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Gorlan
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 9:22:30 GMT -8
Could the FRoR help us here? Maybe send some troops to our aid?
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 10:45:04 GMT -8
I'm not talking about trying to verbally convince them of things (because, yes, we have no high-level diplomat, and they haven't responded well to debate thus far), I'm talking about showing them that we can actually follow through with our word. So when they come up to us and say, "We're looking for ogres!", instead of saying "Uh, we haven't seen any - you wanna go fight vampires though?,", we can instead just calmly say, "It's okay, we already dealt with them. No problem, guys." No, we aren't going to be able to deal with *everything* right away, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing we can deal with. Yes, but if we say that we already dealt with the ogres then we cannot control what they do. I am not saying they should be sent to deal with vampires, but we should provide them something to do.
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Post by Celebfealor on Jan 9, 2013 11:04:13 GMT -8
Alternatively, after reaching first tier. Instead of diplomacy, we could challenge them to an honorable duel for the job of protecting sorikonia. Then all we have to do is win. This will probably only work here, but it's worth a shot. ...That's a point I hadn't thought of. This is Sorikonia, and you can make this decisions via duels. It would be a viable option, maybe, but there are a few things to think of: 1) We would be dueling them for the right to protect their homeland. What kind of message does that imply if we win? That they don't have the right to protect themselves, and only outsiders can do that job? That has the potential to create a lot of resentment, not only from the militia, but also from the rest of Sorikonians who have until this point not been part of the dispute. 2) What if we lose? Then not only does the pacifism thing kind of go out the window, but we're out of a job. The best way I can think of to take it from that point would be to do things we would normally do and say that our motivation isn't to defend Sorikonia, it's to defeat the Dark City. Or our motivation isn't to protect the people of Sorikonia, it's to clean up after the hurricane. Technically those aren't lies, they're just skewing our approach to what we're doing? ("We're not going into shrines - they're tombs!") 3) How would we decide who won? If you don't have some kind of official agreement as to the terms, and don't have some kind of judge overlooking the duel, then the losing end can make the battle moot by complaining that this and this weren't done properly, and this interfered and it should have been like this if this didn't happen, etc. Kind of like how Serpenton did about Kendrai/Gramus regarding the War of Heaven. How would we ensure that the outcome was honored? Could the FRoR help us here? Maybe send some troops to our aid? I suspect that the armies of the FRoR already have plenty on their plates, and may be hard-pressed to help Sorikonia as well. Or, alternatively, because it's so close to the Dark City, they're already here and helping protect Sorikonia (we just haven't run into them yet). Or else they aren't here because they can't because it interferes with Sorikonia's neutral position somehow. In any case, either way, it would have to be the FRoR offering to help Sorikonia rather than the other way around, because if Sorikonia asks for the armies to come, that's a form of militarization. Yes, but if we say that we already dealt with the ogres then we cannot control what they do. I am not saying they should be sent to deal with vampires, but we should provide them something to do. You have a point. But isn't our goal to get them to stop doing things and re-take their vows of pacifism, rather than going out to deal with more problems as a militia? I suppose there's a flaw in my plan in that there will always be more things to do, and we can't remove all the threats that they could potentially face off against. But we can hardly follow through with the goal of getting them to accept pacifism again if we have them dealing with other things.
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Post by Celebfealor on Jan 9, 2013 11:12:14 GMT -8
Something else we should factor into our plans: a group of militia are already vampires, and they aren't going to simply be laying low. They will also be making moves and trying to gain control of the whole militia for their own plans, and we have to try and anticipate that and be prepared to deal with problems that arise from that fact. Lessee. If I were a vampire in control of part of the militia, what would I do with them?
Probably I would set up some kind of scene, sacrificing undead/vampires in the process, to make it look like the militia had been victorious, and have that division make some kind of "triumphant return". And make a fuss about how using violence is the way to go, and how all we have to do is be brave enough to fight them, etc etc. Then I would get other non-vampire divisions of militia to come join us in fighting vampires, and actually set a trap for them so that they would also get vampirfied. Rinse and repeat, until either everybody is vampires or the vampires are in charge of the milita and can manipulate them to do whatever they want.
Cultural backlashes of this would include 1) Villagers - vampires need to feed, and militia vampires would feed on and charm villagers, too. 2) By crying out about how we need to fight the vampires, and obviously pacifism doesn't work, you encourage a kind of rebellion against the existing order - the Martial Masters - because "you've been lying to us! You just want us to be killed!" and that could easily evolve into "They're vampires! That's why they want us to be pacifists - so that they Dark City can take control of us!" and then you have a huge mess on your hands. Chaos ensues, vampires take advantage of it, situation gets worse.
Or at least, that series of events is one possibility. There are probably plenty more, because vampires are crafty like that. It could also be that they're expecting us to expect them to do something like that, so they'll actually make sure that the militia is completely clean of vampirism so that we just look bad/dishonorable when we try to investigate it (which hampers our ability to function effectively against them in turn). Then they could either a) find some way to make the militia unite and work cohesively, with the "head" being an actual vampire seeming like a legitimate person and ordering the militia to do what it needs them to do, or b) keep the militia in its current state in order to avoid suspicion, and encourage them to do what they're already doing - attacking potential allies (like the urukai) under the ruse of protecting Sorikonia, thus creating lots more enmity with other groups and screwing over everyone on a different front that *still* looks completely clean of vampires.
...Just saying.
Edit: Or alternatively, under the "clean" version of events, if people start asking questions, self-sacrifice some sired-bys and have them "found out" and "killed" by militia that's supposed to be clean but either a) actually isn't and are also sired-bys/charmed by this point, or b) legitimately are clean, and haven't been manipulated to do things, but you just make sure that they find your vampires and defeat them so that things look like they're back to normal and nobody will be the wiser/peacekeeper won't work/brainscanning won't work/etc.
And under the "everyone's a vampire" version of events (really under either or any version of events), the base goal of vampires is to subvert Sorikonian culture and encourage people to stop pacifism so that they break Sorikonia's power. Maybe in order to counter that, we should do things that encourage Sorikonian culture again? Hold cultural festivals/poetry competitions/pacifist-duels (so as to showcase how pacifists can be effective), etc?
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Gorlan
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Post by Gorlan on Jan 9, 2013 11:51:10 GMT -8
1. You can still remain neutral and have guards. 2. We need to stop or quarantine the east gate immediately, or we could let what you mentioned happen. 3. This is not going to be fixed easily. I think the best course of action is to level up, and summon more guardians. 4. Like it or not. This isn't going to be solved by pacifists. 5. I agree that we should encourage sorikonian culture. That could be helped by tiering up and getting some monks (They have the best pacifist abilities) We also should get rid of the other threats, so something like the east gate doesn't happen again. (We are out of position) We can't let anything escalate in our position. This means that we have to be ready to deal with any threat. i.e. Don't let a mission be on the board for 3 months and then get totally out of hand. In other words we have to multitask. I think we should put them in non combat situations like helping the average person.
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Post by Lily on Jan 9, 2013 23:10:54 GMT -8
So what do we know? 1. The orks were hunting bandits then got attacked by the villagers. 2. The orks took revenge and attacked back. 3. You guys went out there and found one group of villagers to be vampires. Is that it or did I miss an important point?
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Post by ElfChild on Jan 10, 2013 0:11:31 GMT -8
...we didn't find a group of villagers were vampires. We convinced a group that the real threat was vampires, not orcs, and then told them where some were. They may or may not be vamps now, but we are assuming they are until we have info stating otherwise.
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